What do you do with hands like JJ-88 in early position? Always raise? Always limp? A little bit of both?
I would like to hear some feedback on everybody that reads here to see how you guys play them and, of course, why you play them this way. I present to you a little quiz. This should give everybody a good mental workout. Make sure to take in plenty of protein!
Start with these questions:
Your hand is JJ. Assume that the stacks are 100BB deep and your players are mostly tight and passive with a few oddballs(semi-loose, aggressive) throw in. I will give you a couple scenarios for each option(call or raise).]
Here is a serious of questions to answer for each situation I am giving(I also include some situationally specific questions):
- What is your plan if you flop an overpair?
- What is your plan if you flop a set?
- How do you react if the flop contains and A and/or K?
- What is your plan if the board contains and A and/or K and you flopped a set?
Situation 1: You raise and you are reraised by a straightforward player.
- Do you call? Why or why not?
- Does anyone 4-bet here? Why or why not?
Situation 2: You raise and you are called by a straightforward player on the button.
Situation 3: You limp and are raised by a straightforward player in late position and everyone folds to you
- Do you call? Why or why not?
- Does anybody reraise here? Why or why not?
Situation 4: Two players limp behind and both of the blinds come along.
I think that is plenty to get started on. Post your comments below and I will post my own answers to the quiz later.
yay i get to pop the new post’s cherry! anyway, lets get down to business….
Section 1:
1) I think that a raise is probably in order. Few reasons for this. JJ is one of those whipcream on shit kinda hands in a multi-way pot. Against a bunch of random limpers the value of this hand goes down which kinda leads to my next point. With a few screwballs at the table, I don’t want to give said screwballs a chance to see a cheap flop with a garbage hand. Maybe raise to 4BB total or something along those lines that if you do get played back at its not gonna stress you out too much.
2) Assuming we make this raise and a people call and we flop an overpair I still would play this a little cautiously. JJ is not a hand really a hand that i want to get too frisky with if the cannonballs were in the hand. It would probably be about 70/30 bet/check depending on the texture of the board. I would think a half pot-ish continuation bet would be alright just as long as it doesn’t balloon the pot too much. Probably folding to any checkraises and calling any small raises from late players who might think top pair of 9s or something with a decent kicker could possibly be worth a raise.
3) Probably going for the checkraise if I flopped a set depending on the board. If there was a potential flush/straight draw out, I’d want to make sure johnny smokescreen isn’t gonna get there cheap. I wouldn’t necessarily like a bet out here cause it may discourage action from a person in late position and I would almost certainly have the best of it at this point.
4) If an A or K flops, I’m probably go into check/fold mode. Out of position, not a whole lot that I can do. Fancy play will probably only end up getting me in a shitstorm for which I’m not prepared.
5) This changes things. After I stopped fist pumping and patting myself on the ass for being awesome at life, I would probably be more likely to bet out hoping that someone has an A or a K and I’d be very happy to get all the chippies in the center. Of course if they had AA or KK I’d probably go to Lowe’s to buy a large strand of rope and hang myself. Such is life.
Moving forward:
Situation 1: Unless I have this guy pegged, I’ll probably chuck JJ here. If we give him an AA-QQ/AK-KQ kinda range, we’re about a coinflip and if the flop does come with undercards and he does have AA-QQ, we’re in a bit of a pickle. I think a 4 bet here would ill-advised. Unless we could absolutely rule out the possibility that he has an overpair, more often than not I think this spells disaster.
Situation 2:
Calling by a straightfoward play on the button doesn’t bother me too much and maybe it should. This guy could be calling with just about anything on the button and we’re 75%ish (maybe) against a random hand. Going along the lines of the last quiz thing, just calling a raise could potentially mean that he has a monster but at that instant, all we have to go on is the preflop information. Smart play on subsequent streets will equalize the chance that this dudeson has a monster.
Situation 3:
If we were limping with the hope that this happened, then I’d say we have to play it strong. If this guy has anything more than a giant terd between his head, he might see blood in the water and be just trying to pick up the blinds. I’d be okay with sticking my nose out here and reraising him back and I’d probably cry if I got reraised. A smoothe call gives us that extra little bit of deception with a good hand against a random hand but I think it puts us in a tough spot on a flop with an A or a K.
Situation 4:
I’m assuming that we limped in this situation so hopefully this isn’t a bunch of rabble rabble. Anyway I think this is probably the worst situation out of all of these. Jacks against 4 players who could be holding anything sucks the chode of life. Unless I flopped a set or the board comes up 2-6-10 rainpiece, I’d probably just realize that I made a pretty dumb play limping with JJ out of position and live to fight another day.
Sorry for the lack of technical terms, but I don’t like acronyms and fancy schmancy talk. -Squibbs
(note: I was halfway through typing this when it occurred to me that we don’t know how much the villain is raising. Is this a level? lol)
Situation 1: For me, this depends on how tight the reraiser is, whether or not I’m getting odds to setmine, and how likely he is to stack off on an unimproved high pair. Unless I know that this villain 3bets light, I’m not 4 betting here. Then again, I play 25NL where 3betting usually means QQ+ and maybe AK. I’m not a fan of 4betting when I’m behind the range.
If I flop an overpair (specifically with JJ) I’m probably c/fing the flop (I’m a puss lol)
If I flop a set I’m c/cing flop and and possibly the turn too (unless I know he’ll stack off with AA/KK and then I’ll raise flop and try to get stacks in. I want him to think he’s getting value from KK and QQ for 2 streets (or one if I think he’ll check the turn). If he’s betting both, (assuming he’s betting decently sized) we should be set up for a river push that he’ll be hard pressed to call.
If an A or K comes out I’m b/fing flop. I’m not a fan of the line, but I dislike it the least in that it can fold out a lot of hands that beat us (especially QQ and possibly even AA). Check-raising is a bit stronger and might have a better chance of pushing out AK, but it costs more. Also I think this line is less likely to get called and more likely to be raised/folded so it leaves us an easier decision. (Flame away!! lol)
If the flop has a jack AND an ace I think I’m playing passively for a small-medium pot. The only hand that wants to build a big pot is AA as KK and QQ will fear the ace on the board. (At least that’s my thinking)
If I get a Jack and a King on the board, I like it a bit better since AA might gives us some action. In other words, if villain is hanging around, I’d have his range as AA,KK,and AK whereas in the first situation I’d put villain on AA/AK. I’d probably c/c the flop and turn and value bet the river if he checked behind on turn.
Situation 2
With villain calling preflop and me being OOP, flop texture’s gonna have a LOT to do with my actions. Assuming a dry flop, I’d bet flop and b/f turn and probably c/c river. Raises from preflop callers who have position on me (especially when the board is dry) is unnerving.
If the board has an A or K on it, I’m cbetting the flop and folding to any aggression by the villain. The cbet should usually take the pot down since I could easily have AK. Further aggression from villain says he can beat TP (which I can’t lol)
If I hit a set, I’m aiming to get stacks in unless the flop is horrible like TdJdQd. I don’t know what’s more likely to get stacks in against a “straightforward player” but I’d either bet/3bet flop or bet/call flop and shove turn. I play this a bit slower if there’s an A/K on the board. With these on the board, TP hands are likely to give us some action, but not stack off. On the low board, we’re getting action from hands that will likely stack off (2 pairs and lower sets)
Situation 3: Heh heh…4 betting looks really sexy on the surface, but it’s only folding out the hands we beat. Also, we can’t look forward to much if we 4bet. Either
He folds and we win a small pot
He raises and we fold
He calls and we’re OOP, behind his range, and the pot is huge.
I assume villain’s raising range from LP is pretty wide so calling here is better, IMO and let’s villain make some mistakes post flop.
If we flop an overpair, I think the goal is to play a small-medium pot (which we can still do if we just call the flop raise). I’d be wary of serious aggression from villain also since he could have picked up a set or 2 pair. Having said that, I’d opt to either donk/fold or c/r and fold to a shove here. C/c’ing doesn’t tell me much about villain’s hand except that he’s willing to bet it (as opposed to being willing to raise with it).
If I hit a set, I’m hoping he hit a lower one or two pair and c/ring flop. If he sticks around, I’m betting out the turn and river.
If we hit a set and there’s an ace on the board, I’m dancing, then c/c’ing the flop and c/ring a non-face turn card. My thinking here is that TPTK hands could take my flop call as weakness and fire a second barrel. I mention the face card since villain might have raised with 2 broadway cards and now has a made straight or pair/draw combo. If a face card comes on the turn, I’m betting out 2/3 pot and probably calling a shove since I think he’d shove both straights and 2pair hands and there are more 2pair hands.
In short, I think c/ring the flop only gets value from 2pair/set hands, but c/cing flop and c/ring turn gets us another bet from top pair hands. If the villain has 2pair or a set, we’ll get his stack anyway (am I right?)
* Actually, I failed to consider that we’d get value from drawing hands as well. With a Jack and a King or Ace hitting the flop, villain might be on a straight draw. If we add these draws to his range that’d call a flop c/r, then the flop c/r is definitely better. My question now, is, does a weak-tight player cbet the drawing hand, or just check behind? SO MANY VARIABLES!!*
Note: The section marked in asterisks was written about 20 minutes after I finished my answers for situation 3.
Situation the fourth!!
Wow, so we limped and now have 2 players on each side? If we flop an overpair, I’m playing it cagey. People limp in pots hoping to hit something fierce and then stack their opponents. If it checks to me, I’ll bet out to try and take it down right there. Overcards will shut me out on the later streets and someone could catch something (or could already have something) and I’m not going to war with JJ in a imped pot. If I meet resistance, I’m gone.
If I flop a set, I’m betting out and hoping someone caught 2 pair or a lower set. Of course, the flop texture is DAMN important with 100 people in the pot, so that’ll dictate things as well. On a dry flop, though, I’m looking to get stacks in by betting flop and bet/3betting turn.
If an Ace or king flops, I’m betting to take the pot down (unless SB bets out, then I’m folding) and then folding to resistance. If we hit our set AND an ace or king comes down, I’m betting out for sure. Both for value, and for protection as we need to charge drawing hands (since we’ve got 2 face cards on the flop).
I am tired now, but I’m sure there’ll be tons to discuss! Thanks for making me think, Jacob!
Crap, I can’t edit? Fixing typos this way sucks.
mistakes
Sit 1 Paragraph 3. Last word should be “fold”, not “call”. We want him to call.
Further editing might come, but my ass is sleepy! Also, DAMN YOU SQUIBBS for popping the cherry. That’ll be all.
Okay, I’m Grunching -
Situation 1: If they are truly straightforward then I would almost always fold, giving them credit for a better hand. Typically the only hands which 3-bet (at least at 10NL) are AA, KK, QQ, AK, or rarely JJ. I realize we are probably a slight favorite over AK, but considering we are a dog to AA, KK, and QQ and merely chop with JJ, I prefer to err on the side of caution and fold.
Situation 2: This is tougher now. I generally don’t 4-bet with JJ as it basically pot commits us, which I’m not crazy about being pre-flop. For this one I think I call and try to play for set-value, but if the board is ragged I’ll probably be willing to shove it all in there. In the case of overcards, I’m generally going to sigh and fold.
Situation 3: If I had limped (which I don’t do with those hands) I’m definitely going to call for set value at least. However, this scenerio gives us an interesting opportunity to go for a limp/raise, which I’ve also never tried. Since this line (if villain is savvy enough to recognize it) is typically reserved for AA/KK, I think we would likely fold out some better hands when we c-bet the flop. Hmmm…might be an interesting exercise, particularly against an opponent who isn’t tricky or too aggressive.
Situation 4: This is really a case where I think we are stuck playing for set value now. I will probably take a stab at any flop (and would raise over a bet from the blinds if I have TP), but I don’t think I’ll 2-barrel unless I somehow still have an overpair on the turn.
These were fun, Jacob. Now I’m gonna go back and read the lines others would take…
Guys,
Why does JJ suck so bad in a multiway pot?
It’s been my experience that people limp into pots to see f they can hit something big. Every limped pot ends up looking like one of these.
1) checking all around till SD.
2) Someone bets, everyone else folds.
3) two people are betting and calling, but no raising. It goes to SD, and it’s usually tpgk vs tpwk or a rivered two pair vs top pair.
4) Someone bets an, another raises, everyone folds.
5) 2 people get into a raising war and it winds up being 2 pair vs set or couple of big hands.
I don’t think it’s specifically JJ that sucks in a multiway pot, but I do think that overvaluing a 1 pair hand in a limped pot is a recipe for losing chips. If I’m IP and there’s a bet-raise-call before it gets to me, I’m leaving whether I’m JJ or AA (though I shouldn’t be there with AA unless I planned to limp/rr and got 4 limpers. lol)
FTR, JJ sucks in general. lol
pretty much agree with rapid… I’ve always been of the school of thought that with a pretty decent hand like JJ you want to slim the field out a little bit. I think JJ is a strong enough hand that you shouldn’t just be playing it for set value, but on the other hand, I think you are forced to tug on the reins a bit when an overcard comes. Maybe I just suck when it comes to playing anything but the pure nutskins but I think that JJ is a very easy hand to overplay and in multiway pots this problem can be compounded.
I agree with what’s been said above about JJ. When it comes down to it, I’m either hoping for a set or am playing for a very small pot while hoping not to see an overcard come down.
Will be interested to hear your thoughts, Jacob.
Guys,
You guys are pretty spot on with a lot of your points. I have a lot of stuff I would like to add to this discussion. I plan to have something by the end of this week. Keep checking in and adding anything else that you feel may have been left out!
I wanted to add that there are some hands I’d play differently if my hand were say…88 or 99. Given reads, I may be a little more aggressive with 88 than I would with JJ as there are more hands ahead of me that I might be able to fold out.
Also, regarding the hands where we hit a set and an A/K falls on the board: I think that a flop of A-J-2 where we have JJ is much different than a flop of A-8-3 when we have 88 because we’ll see more 2pair hands and straight draws in the first scenario. I’d think I’d tend to play the set of jacks a bit (if not much) faster than the set of 8’s, but I haven’t been in that situation enough times to give a more experienced response.
Rapid,
Maybe I’m just not good at reading but I’m not quite sure I understand the first part of that last post. The way I’m reading it is, you would play middle pairs more aggressively than you would JJ because there are more hands ahead of you that you might be able to fold out? Are you saying there are more players behind you left to act that you might be able to fold out by playing these hands more aggressively? Or are you saying that by playing these hands more aggressively you hope to narrow down the range of hands that could call you with an aggressive opening raise?
I guess before I continue I should include a minor caveat: I don’t play poker anymore! I play a little here and there in some small games with friends but since neteller and doyle’s room shut down I have played pretty sparingly. That being said I guess I’m just trying to keep my poker mind sharp… and I’m bored. A lot.
Anyway, I guess I personally would be a little wary of kicking up the aggression factor with medium pairs in early position. I understand the reasoning behind it but I just don’t know how often its going to work in principle. If you’re sure that you can narrow it down to just one pf caller, you’re not looking too bad but if more than one person comes along you’re gonna be faced with a bit of a sticky situation postflop. Though it might be a bit of a chickenshit move, I still think I’m playing medium pairs for set value most of the time since.
I’m not quite sure I understand what you mean if I interpret that the other way (e.g. – thinning out the field) either with medium pairs. Maybe my thinking is slightly convoluted but a pair of 8s is still a pair of 8s and a pair of Js is better than a pair of 8s. Why are we to assume that a little bit bigger opening raise with 8s or 9s would thin out the field anymore than a “regular” size raise with JJ? I don’t know if this even makes sense but I’ll leave it up to Senor Threads to try and figure out if I really have a point.
I just had an epiphany and realized that you didn’t specify whether you were talking about pre-flop here, so I guess I took the liberty of making that assumption… If not, than none of this applies haha – squibbs
Squibbs
In regards to your post, I’m talking about being aggressive preflop, but also following that aggression through for at least one streets (usually 2, and sometimes three). I’ll break down my reasoning into pre and postflop.
Preflop
An EP raise is usually interpreted as a very strong holding from a tight player (TT+/AQ+). I like open raising from EP (this is table-dependent, of course) with any PP and AQ+. I’ve found that this has helped me take down more pots (cbetting at my level will win a pot quite often), disguise my big hands when I raise with them in EP, AND serve as disguise when I hit a set on a low board. Of course, this gets offset by having to play more hands OOP, but I’ve gotten better at keeping pots small when I have one pair (unless it’s an overpair and I know villain will stack off with TP). If a few small pair hands make it to SD when I’ve raised them from EP, I’ll check to see if I’m getting 3 bet more, then tighten up. It’s fun to turn over AA when someone in the blinds 3bet shoves.
Postflop
This might be a leak, but against timid players, I’ll press my small/medium pairs hard than my higher pairs. My reasoning is twofold.
a) Hands like QQ and KK have nice showdown value. My goal is to play the pot small and get value from the lower pairs that call me, or the TP hands on a J or T high board. (or a Qhigh board if I have KK). Hands like 22 and 33 will lose if the opponent hit any damn piece of the flop, so I’d be happier if they went away.
b) If I know villain can fold one-pair hands, then I’ll see if I can fold out hands like 77-TT when I have 33 (I don’t mind them sticking around if I have QQ/KK). Smarter players don’t like to hold on to hands like this in the face of pressure because it’s more likely in the villain’s head that I’m betting with AA-QQ than 22-44. Even if things don’t work out (I triple-barrel with 44 and get called down by 99), I’m staying at that table and taking people to valuetown when I get AA or KK. Of course, this can all be exploited. Someone paying close enough attention could just wait till I’m pushing more than I “usually” would with a high pair and pounce on me right? Well…maybe not.
Set-disguise
My favorite part of this (and it’s made me laugh when it works) is that really observant players will try to exploit the wide EP-raising range [i]postflop[/i] at a time when I’ve conveniently hit a set. I really want to do more work with this because if I’m raising from EP with any pair, then ANY flop becomes dangerous. A low, raggy flop will definitely miss someone who’s only raising TT+ and limping everything else (if they’ve raised), but it might’ve hit me! As I improve, I hope to get much better at advertising and then exploiting this broader EP range. I hope this answered your question!
Yay Threads!!